Adult Children Of Emotionally Immature Parents - Lindsay C. Gibson Interview

You're going right to the heart of some of the most painful experiences. Do you have any sense of what it is about this book that's so triggering? I think that people already know all of this. I don't mean they know it consciously. Um, but I think they already know that something very significant has happened to them in their relationship with their parents and and with other emotionally immature people because it's unhealthy and it registers on your psyche every time you get a hit of that unhealthy interaction. So they've been knowing about this for a long time, but they didn't know it in their intellectual mind what to call that or why that was happening or even you know to understand what was happening. So I think the the triggering part is that that knowledge is right beneath the

surface of your conscious mind and all it needed was a name and some explanation to make it go poof [laughter] you know and there's a little uh light bulb um that that goes on and it's like ah that's what it is. So I think the book arrived just at that point where a lot of people had a kind of a feel for what's described in the book, but they really didn't have the concept or the words for it. It's a very interesting kind of um brain thing when you think about it. It's like we're walking around with this knowledge, but we don't really know it yet. So I think the book kind of came on the scene just at that point when a lot of people were experiencing that.

And what led you to writing this book? How did it come about? Yeah, I was I was I've been in uh private practice for over 30 years. So that goes way back. Um, in fact, I I wrote an earlier book called Who You're Meant to Be, which had a lot of the same themes, but like with my reader, I didn't know what to call that. So, so I ended up just describing it in in that book. And when I look back on it, I can see how what was really going on was all the complications from having had that emotionally immature relationship system in the person's childhood.

But onto the hard end of the book, what happened was that um when my clients would come in and describe the relationship problems they were having, I would listen to them and I would think, "Wow, you know, their their mother is is acting like a four-year-old or um man, their dad, I mean, that that's what a 12year-old would do or you know, their their wife, you know, this is this is like little kid behavior. That's that's a tantrum. I [laughter] mean, you can say she was really angry, but that was a tantrum. So, based on my training and education in child development and child development theory, to me, I put that together that what we're actually seeing is emotional immaturity.

that even though their intellect may have matured, they're they're plenty smart, their social skills have matured, you know, they might be popular, very um emotionally intelligent appearing in their work life. Even though they have these separate strands of good development as an adult, in the area of emotional stability and emotional intimacy and connection with other people, they're missing that they're immature in that area and they need other people to take care of them emotionally. So as I began to put this together in those terms, I began sharing that with my clients and I would share that, you know, this kind of behavior is uh what I just mentioned about being immature. And it was like they really caught on to that. They it was very very helpful to them to have somebody finally call it out as childlike behavior

because I'm sure they realized that it wasn't normal adult behavior. But to have that concept that they were actually maybe stunted um in their emotional growth that was very helpful to them. So when I saw how useful it was, that's when I began to develop the idea in the sense of wanting to turn this into a book, you know, something that could really help with the psycho education of a lot of people. Yeah. And I know you just um you outline it in the book, but for anybody who hasn't read it and is maybe seeing this after the fact, how would you personally define emo define emotional immaturity as it relates to parents?

Yeah. Well, emotional immaturity is is a whole complex of uh different little behaviors that are quite predictable. I mean, if you get one or two of these characteristics, you're probably going to find the rest of them because they kind of nest together. Uh but the emotionally immature person, there there are about five characteristics that really identify them as being emotionally immature. And the number one is egocentricity. Like all roads lead to me. Um everything is about me somehow. And I'm the most important person in the relationship. That's that's just a given. That's the way three and four year olds think, right? Um they also have very poor empathy. They It's not that they don't have any empathy. If they're not threatened, if their needs are taken care of, if they're feeling good, they do have some empathy just like most

normal people. But the tiniest bit of conflict or stress or disappointment or irritation and that goes right out the window. Instead, they become very me centered and there's no empathy for what it feels like to the other person, even if it's their child. They just don't put themselves in your shoes and they don't mentalize what might be going on in your mind. In other words, they don't imagine what your thoughts might be or what your inner experience might be. That's just irrelevant to them. that's not interesting. So they don't give that kind of emotional connection to their children. They also tend to interpret reality purely on the basis of their feelings. Again, we're talking about the child who's under the age of seven. Um they just uh trust their feelings to

tell them what reality is. If I feel like it, it's true. So you have the the parent who you know that you try to set a limit with them, set a boundary with them, and then you uh find them saying things like, "Oh, I I just must be the worst mother ever." Or the dad says, "Uh, well, never mind. You won't have to get any of my phone calls again." uh they just go to these extremes because they feel like a slight correction on their behavior means that they are bad and worthless and you don't love them anymore. That's emotional interpretation of reality. And besides that, they also go into dismissing your reality.

Um denying reality. I mean, they'll say they didn't do or say things that they absolutely did. And they'll also distort reality. They'll tell you a story or they'll relate something to you and you feel like you're crazy because you know that's not what happened, but they're doing that because of their extreme psychological defensiveness. That is they they feel so easily knocked off balance and their emotional stability and their self-esteem are very very um brittle and can easily be cracked and shattered and then you are supposed to come along and treat them in such a way that they can reconstitute and feel good about themselves again. That's the emotionally immature relationship system. That's the dynamic of it. Um, and then finally, a hallmark characteristic is their

intense discomfort, intense uncomfortableness with any kind of emotional intimacy. So when you as their adult child try to relate to them about emotional issues or tell them how they made you feel or explain why you had to set this boundary, you know, because they had been texting you every day and it was getting to be, you know, an intrusion. they can't stand that kind of uh deep emotional honesty and connection. It really threatens their emotional stability and their self-esteem. So, you can imagine how hard that would be for a little child who who is just I mean, we're just little bundles of emotion and reactivity when we're children, right? Um, so when they shut us down, when we start moving into telling them about our feelings, it's

crushing because where else are we going to go? It's not like there's, you know, a therapist next door uh waiting to comfort us. There's nobody. And you're left as a child with these overwhelming feelings without an adult to help you with it. So that's that's the the place where usually there's the most hurt involved where the child needs that connection and the parent is just too too self- conssumed and too defensive to be able to give it. Yeah. So, um, and well, there's a lot my m mind is bouncing all over the place, but, um, in the videos that I showed you, there's a lot of people who write in the comments and are liking this these comments that are saying when I have to go and hug my parents or, you know, show them any affection. Uh, I feel either I feel nothing or I feel gross. I don't like it. Is that kind of a hallmark of people who are raised by

emotionally immature parents? Absolutely. Absolutely. And it it's so tragic because I'm sure that that person would like to feel love for their parent. I mean, we do love our parents. We do uh they're very special people in our lives. I mean that you know whether you're doing the emotional intimacy part of it or not it's it's an extremely dependent and intimate relationship that you have with your parents from birth right there's nobody else like that. So these people don't want to feel that way when they hug their parents because they know in in some place in their heart they do love their parents and I think they know that their parents do love them in their way. So when they have a moment of affection or they're trying to have a moment of affection, it's really it's really sad. It's it's um it's it's to me it's tragic because here you have

two people that really in some place in their heart want to connect with each other and yet there's been so much disappointment and so much anxiety around trying to get any kind of emotional satisfaction from them that that moment just can't happen. Yeah. So when somebody recoils from their parent or finds that moment, you know, terribly off-putting, I think we have to be very forgiving of ourselves for that because we're just doing what would come naturally to a child and we're genuinely in our child part when we're doing affection or closeness with other people. But that child knows that if I go too far, if I hug a little too tight, a little too long, if I say something that, you know, kind of makes my parent pull back, this

moment could turn into me feeling ashamed of myself very easily, very quickly. If I misjudge their tolerance for the intimacy that I'm I'm experiencing, this could be very upsetting to me. So you know we develop these other feelings like um discomfort, anxiety, distaste uh because we are we have been made afraid of feeling rejected. Yeah. And I assume that then plays out kind of not just with their parents but with everyone and why it's so hard uh for people who have gone through this upbringing to then connect on that same level with you know friends uh romantic partners even their own children. I had people in my chat the other day talking about that that they see that distance between them and their child and they don't know what to do. So if we had a patient who said that to you, what would be your advice to them?

Are you saying the let's see the would it be the the patient who's who felt that dynamic with their child? Yeah. So so they they were raised by emotionally mature parents and they feel that same distance now with their own child even though they don't want it. They just feel this inability to connect. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. You know um these are such great questions. Well, [laughter] um because you're going right to the heart of some of the most painful experiences with this when you've been trained to feel like your openheartedness is going to make somebody intensely uncomfortable and anxious and therefore they may reject you.

That can be very hard to overcome, especially with your child whom you love and you want to be close to, but you've had these family experiences that taught you that that kind of openheartedness was going to lead to a shaming experience. That is, they're going to pull back from you. They're going to say, "Whoa, wait a minute. what's, you know, hang on a second. Uh, they're going to do something to disrupt the moment. Um, or as as one one woman said, she ran home. I I gave my mother a big hug and the whole time I'm hugging her, she's pushing me away from her, saying, "Now, don't forget to call Aunt Franny." It's like um you don't understand at a conscious level what's going on, but at an emotional level you are picking it up that there's something about this whole thing that is uncomfortable and potentially

emotionally dangerous. So sometimes what people have to do with when this is happening with their children when they're in some old conditioning pattern of their own is they can start out by doing things that are a little more comfortable like they can make a point to make eye contact with their child. Uh we don't realize how little eye contact we actually give our children because we're always busy, right? But if you keep in mind that eye contact is one of the best ways of establishing a moment of emotional intimacy, that can be tremendously helpful to people. That's an idea by Ross Campbell, by the way, a psychiatrist who has written books on children. Um, but that's a way of just count the number of times that you make eye contact and try to up it a little bit each day. take an opportunity to just make eye contact. Doesn't have to

be a staring contest. I'm not More is not better, but frequent is better. So, more frequency is better. The other thing is you can do little things like you can reach over in the car and pat their hand. That takes one second. There's no uh discomfort there for that. You can um when you're saying good night to them, you can make a point of giving them a hug. Even if it's a little stiff hug, it doesn't matter. It's just that you're showing them that you're trying. And you can even tell your child that you're trying. You're saying, you know, I love to [clears throat] be with you.

I love to show affection with you. I wish we were closer. And I'm going to be trying because I think it's so important. So, you don't have to do anything, but I'm just going to make a point to let you know how I feel about you, which is that you're a fabulous kid, and I'm so glad you're mine. So, you can do those kinds of little things that that don't amount to uh, you know, a prolonged intense kind of uh intimate moment. It can be these little things that that build that sense in the child of, "Oh, you know, um my parent is opening their heart to me.

My parent really cares about me." Wow. Uh that that that's really amazing because um we have a a digital book club and we've just just this past week, we finished uh reading the book Atomic Habits. I'm not sure if you've read it by James Clear. And what he talks his entire thesis is to begin building habits by doing kind of the quickest, easiest, simplest things you can do so that there isn't a big resistance internally to it and that you just instead of trying to build that specific habit, you're learning how to build the habits of building habits. That's his thesis. And as I heard you speaking about it, I'm like, "Wow, I've never thought to apply this to uh, you know, emotional habits as well." Yeah. Yeah. that that's a that um I'll have to go back and read that book. I think I I think I started it [laughter] probably when I was trying to break a habit. But um yeah, no, it's it's those kinds of little teeny things. What they're actually doing is they're

they're they're uh conditioning you to move out of the anxiety that you have been taught to have around those kinds of of intimate things. Um and there's no good reason why you have to feel anxious about those moments. It's just that you've been trained out of it. So you can train yourself back into it with these little baby steps that feel comfortable to you. I mean, you won't be doing your child any favor if you push yourself into doing something that you're not comfortable with because that's just going to register as awkward, right? You don't want that. But there's so many little things that you can do that are sincere um notices to your child that you care and you're trying to let them know that.

Awesome. I love that. Okay. Uh let me just roll back because you're right. We did get kind of into deep waters very quickly there. Uh and I had a lot of people over my lives the last couple days. I've done lives where I've done little reads from your book and and spoken about it. And so many people had so many questions. So I want to try and make sure that I get as many of them answered as I can. And so let's say I'm someone who just read adult children for the first time that it blew me wide open and that I recognize my parents in one of or all four of these types of parents and now all these memories these feelings are coming up now in addition to working with a therapist which is obviously kind of the ideal what should my next steps be and how do I get over the resentment or begin getting over the resentment I feel for my parents and and I'll add part A and B to that. One, to parents who are still here, and two, something that came up that I thought was really kind of an insightful question. What do I do if my parents are no longer here, but I want to get over

this? I want to deal with this. Yeah. So, let me start with the part about the uh what to do with the resentment. The resentment is a normal healthy reaction to having been hurt. Um there's no way to get away from that. So I just encourage people to accept that this is part of their human nature that we are going to resent it when somebody has hurt us or deprived us or neglected us or or whatever it might be that's going to be there. But the the deepest issue I think that goes on between children and emotionally mature parents is that that parent has not been skilled or even able to help their child feel secure in

their own self and their own identity. Uh the parent tries to control the child. The parent tries to tell the child what to feel and think. uh that parent doesn't listen to what the child is trying to tell them. The parent does not pick up on what the child is feeling. And so there's a kind of a wholesale uh neglect of that child's inner world. And the child is trained um in all these you know obvious and not so obvious ways. The child is trained to think of other people first. Got to keep that parent stable. Got to keep that parent, you know, the most important person in the relationship.

And they learn to suppress themselves and not feel their own feelings. I mean it's so common that adult children of emotionally immature parents when a they're in a situation and something happens they'll think twice like one is how is this going to affect mom or dad or whoever and then secondly they'll think how is this affecting me? So they're so conditioned to take care of the emotional needs or the reactivity basically of that parent that they can't even know clearly what they think and feel. Now, to me, that's a kind of um almost like uh I don't know what the right word is for emotional brainwashing, but uh it's not that they're being, you know, taught these ideas that that are, you know, literally

brainwashing. But they're being taught emotional patterns, right? And these emotional patterns are very painful because it has to do with a lot of self-suppression and a lot of turning against yourself in order to serve the emotional needs of these immature people. So the resentment comes up not only you know how you've treated me but it's that you disconnected me from myself. Mhm. You made me feel bad about having the thoughts and feelings that I can't help having because I'm a little human being here. And that is something that is really hard to get over because it's affected you in your relationship with your own self.

And that is the basis of our confidence, of our um self-awareness, of our sense of belonging. So that's a hard thing to get over. So I think that the cure for that, the healing of that comes about when you reconnect with yourself and you come to know, I mean, if you go to therapy, that's great. If you journal, that's wonderful. Um, if you talk to your friends or talk to your mate, you know, whomever, if you get to know yourself and you begin to learn how to accept yourself and to no longer feel like that person has some kind of corner on the market about being the center of every relationship, when you get over that, you'll find that your relationship with your parent, whether whether they're living or deceased,

will cease to have this hold on you or will cease to make you feel like you can't be yourself with them because you'll realize that what they're doing doesn't make any sense. It's it's not healthy. It it often is illogical. It's confusing. And when you realize all of this and you begin to sort of uh you know shuck off these um conditions that you've been uh trying to please them with and you become free in yourself. You're you have your own self-nowledge. You begin to realize uh what gives you energy. you begin to realize what your true interests are, what your true um um yeah, what's really fun to you.

When you get all of that back, then it's much easier to have a different kind of relationship with the parent because you're no longer trying to find their approval or get them to understand you or any of those things that people typically want to try to do. And this can happen even if your parent is not alive anymore. I had one woman tell me, she said, um, I've had the best relationship with my father over the past 20 years I've ever had, and he's been dead for 10 of those. So, because how you feel toward your parent is your end of the relationship. And that continues to evolve.

it continues to change and grow. Even if the physical parent is not in the picture anymore, it's part of your they they have become part of your psyche. And as you either work with that resentment or begin to feel differently toward them, you're not um you know sort of um enthralled to what they think you should be. These things inside us start to shift. Thank goodness. Yeah, I love that. Another pain point that came up when I was uh sharing parts of this book are adult uh parents, kind of older parents who have adult children now and they're reflecting back on their lives as parents and they're realizing that a lot of these things that they're reading about in this book, they are guilty of as well. Excuse me. And a couple of them even told me, you know, my kids want nothing to do with me. You know, I tried to send them this book, they weren't receptive. I when I try and

build that relationship, they're not receptive. And they want to know how do I fix it? I'm now aware of what I was, you know, uh they might even feel like it wasn't my fault. I my parents were the same way towards me and I'm here trying to fix it, but it's not working. What can I do? What would you say to them? Yeah. And oh boy, isn't that an awful place to be? Um I really really feel for those parents because no I mean nobody wants to have um a difficult well a difficult or a stranged or messed up relationship with their child. I mean, all parents pretty much given a choice want their child to be happy and they want their child to be successful. Okay. That's that's just part of the parenting deal. But so many people have no idea how to do that and they're and like you're saying, they just copy how they were raised because

that's their model. We don't make people go through parenting classes, unfortunately. Um, I mean, you can have a child and do whatever the heck you want with them within the law. So, um, when things get really difficult and the adult child doesn't want contact anymore, they become estranged, the parent has to understand that this is that person's their child. This is their child's attempt to find themselves and find their own individuality out of the parents shadow. And what that tells me when there's an estrangement like that is, you know, a the parent's probably not listening. Uh the parent is probably trying to to have their viewpoint be heard, too. It's like, "Yes, I know I hurt you, but let

me tell you why." And they don't get the idea that you apologize, you listen, you listen, you listen, and maybe somewhere down the road you explain, but you ask permission first in a genuine way because you have a lot of ground to cover um in order to make up for for what has happened to that child. But if you think that the child is trying to individuate, is trying to have their voice um and sometimes, you know, unfortunately that's very painful to the parent because their voice starts saying things like, "I don't want you to call me for a while." Or, "We're not coming for Christmas." Or, "If you can't do what I ask, you can't babysit the grandchildren.

It comes in the form of these boundaries and how the parent handles that boundary is a whole new education for them. They probably have no idea of what to do other than, you know, be hurt and angry when their children start putting legitimate boundaries on their um behavior and on their contacts. So uh there is a uh there are some books by um a let's see a a social psychologist by the name of Carl Pilmer called fault lines that talks about estrangement and how people uh get back together after family estrangements and there's some other books by Josh Coleman um called rules of arangement and parents [clears throat] who hurt that are very good in terms of giving parents some ideas about how to navigate through these these periods of estrangement.

Thank you. Thank you. I'll pass along those resources for sure. Um I I got this member this uh question from a member of my book club who really uh reached out and was really making a point. Please ask her this. I need help with it. And it was, how do you help a spouse of 20 years with emotional immaturity, especially if they're not very open to seeking therapy? Yeah, my first question if I was talking to the person directly would be, does the person want help? Um, we think they need help because we're we're on the receiving end of their emotional immaturity, right? But um but if a person is not self-reflective, in other words, if they're not asking themselves, what was my part in this? Or could I have uh in any way contributed to this difficult situation? If they're not willing to do that, then there isn't very much that you can

do because personal change comes about when you start to doubt whether or not some of your reactions or your behaviors were really the best way to handle that situation. That's constructive self-doubt. Okay? That's not self-doubt like, uh, you know, I don't trust myself. I'm I'm nervous about my No, that this is constructive self-doubt. When you get a bad result in a relationship, you should ask yourself the question, okay, did I have anything to do with this, too? But emotionally immature people are so easily threatened that they usually don't do that. And so if you're trying to help them uh maybe by becoming aware of their behavior, that's usually the way we we want to help people.

It can really blow up in your face because any kind of correction to an emotionally immature person is the same thing to them as saying, you know what, you did a bad thing and on top of that, you're a bad person. That's what they hear. They're because they're so rigidly black and white, good and bad, right and wrong, that if you criticize them or correct them on something and and it's often it often shows up in these these extreme things they say like, you know, oh then I must not be a very good mother or clearly you don't love me, which is not at all what you said, but in their reactivity because they don't have good stress tolerance. So, you know, they they do that uh acceleration into high anxiety.

So, when they come back at you with those kinds of accusations, if you're not careful, you will spin up too and become reactive back to them and get angry that they're accusing you of saying something that you absolutely did not. So, so at that point, the only thing that really works is when you continue to correct uh patiently, quietly, non-reactively what they're distorting of the reality like, "No, I do love you, Mom. Um, what I was asking you was," and then you repeat, repeat, repeat. Okay? But you if but if you stay calm and you counter what they're coming back to you with about them being a bad horrible person when you continually repeat and repeatedly come back to clarify that and to say no that's not what I'm saying

what I'm saying is this and then you keep repeating there can be some hope that the situation can deescalate and the uh parent can begin to, you know, catch their breath and listen to what you're saying. But if you come back and argue with them, their anxiety is just going to get higher. And it's really interesting, but when we're anxious, our ears don't work very well. I mean really fascinating that our hearing shuts down uh when we're very anxious and you get super anxious and you get a roaring in your ears, you know. So so our our hearing is very associated with our level of anxiety or fear. So, when you're trying to help someone who's emotionally immature, it's really important that you realize how how incredibly reactive they are and that you continue to approach it in a spirit of I may have to repeat this

20 times um over the next two days. But that's the only way that I'm going to calmly explain to them what I was trying to get get across to them. Do you think that we can ultimately change? Because I know when people come into my lives, u I'm reading these uh, you know, self-development books. They always say, "How do I send this to my mother? How do I get my husband to do this, to listen to this, to read this?" And my kind of like standard response is, "At the end of the day, you can't lift other people's weights. They have to be willing to lift their own weights.

You can't go to the gym for someone else. They have to be willing to go." Uh, do you think that's true or is there a way to, you know, do we have ways to get people to change who are maybe not there yet themselves? I think what you're saying is absolutely true and it is the way it goes most times. But I've seen an interesting phenomenon in some people who have really gotten back in touch with themselves. They have terrific self-nowledge. They have freedom of thought. They accept their emotions. Uh they just have reconnected with themselves. Okay. When that happens, they have a very uh mature way of correcting the person's behavior, calmly repeating what it is that they're trying to get across.

And sometimes that works. Okay? Because the person may calm down enough to begin to hear what you're trying to tell them. So, I don't, you know, I I don't tell my clients, uh, just give up and stop trying because they'll never change. I mean, I don't know if they'll change or not. I don't know if they'll have an epiphany or uh maybe they'll have a health scare and maybe they'll want to repair their relationships. I have no way of knowing that. So, I never encourage people to break off contact or to not try because every time you try, you're getting stronger. You're lifting weights is is a great example of that. Um, so it's it's not hurting you to keep trying to reach them. You're just going to get stronger in your ability to speak up for yourself and to say what it is that you need,

which a lot of adult children do need practice with. So that's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing that you try and they don't respond. That's a good thing for you that you're trying because you're taking an active approach. So, I would say that, you know, most of the time there's probably not going to be a good response, but sometimes there can be. It all depends on how receptive the other person is, what's going on in their life that might make them more receptive, and how well you're able to be calm in yourself as you're dealing with them. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I assume you mean, you know, um it's not harmful for you as long as you can, you know, not take it personally, right? To to quote the four agreements, another great book. Yes.

Right. That you can keep Yeah. to keep trying. Uh but if you're getting re-triggered every time, that back, you know, I I've been there and I know that's a difficult time as well. Yeah. No, that's that's really true. And I'm I am fully supportive of people when they uh are not getting through and they're tired of trying and they want to take a break or they want to set the boundary. Yes, I'm I'm completely um supportive of them in that. I just don't feel like it's my place to encourage them to do that. I I would much rather have them come to that on their own.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But yeah, it's not it's not good for anybody to uh keep trying to reach somebody who absolutely does not want to be reached and they let you know that. And uh lastly before I I I want to ask you about the new book um but this idea that I think has been helpful to so many people this idea of positive disintegration which I learned about through your book. this idea that the breakdown is the breakthrough, which is now one of my go-to lines when people on my lives are telling me that they're going through a struggle. So, I'd love if you could just talk a little bit about that, maybe introduce people who don't know what I'm talking about when I say that and uh you know, uh how do you how do you view that the kind of the breakdown being the breakthrough? Yeah, there there was a um Polish psychiatrist um his name was Drowski and he did a lot of research with um psychological development and particularly with uh gifted people, people who were um you

know very smart um emotionally well-developed people. and he felt that uh as we're going through our adult development as well as our child development that we're always developing. Um and that has absolutely been my experience that people are continuing to grow and when we grow we have to in a way take ourselves apart from our old form our old um internal organization. we we have to loosen that up or or break it down a little bit in order to let the new stuff in. So when people are going through uh what we might loosely call a breakdown, you know, maybe they're very anxious, maybe they're not sleeping well, maybe they get depressed, maybe they have

trouble functioning. Um if there is going to be a positive disintegration, [clears throat] they come out of that at a higher level or a more complex level. They they come back together inside. They reorganize at a more complex level because they've taken in um what they have um come to realize in that in that moment of breakdown and they have a breakthrough which means that they realize something or they get something or they have an epiphany or they they it comes to them like what was wrong that made them go into the depression or made them break down. And that new information has to be taken in, reorganized, and then the person kind of um makes a leap forward. You know, they they come back together and they're

stronger for it. Now people who are emotionally immature can also have breakdowns. But instead of doing that inner work about coming to grips with it about thinking about it about trying to realize what what has led up to this what what is really going on. Instead of that they tend to shut it down or try to shut it down and then go back to where they were before the breakdown. And that is nonproductive disintegration. They you just remain kind of stuck. But a lot of times um internalizer particularly internalizer types of adult children they go through that process of breaking down breaking through reconsolidating at a more complex level in their maturation essentially in their in their um development and they become wholeer, fuller, more

complex people as a result of that psychological deterioration for a period of time. And the same thing happens with children. Children go through cycles of equilibrium and disequilibrium as they move through childhood for the same reason because they're learning so much uh you know in usually it's about six month increments. So around the six month mark, the child will begin to um you know be less um sort of like less stable, less happy, less uh put together. And it's because they have to do that. You have to kind of go through that that breakdown of the old forms in order to move out to the next one.

That's so good. I remember uh reading that passage for the first time and uh immediately had this image of the classic image of the phoenix rising from the ashes sort of idea and that's always stuck with me and now when I'm going through a period like that I always think first positive disintegration and then I get that image and so uh that's helped me a lot uh through the years. So I want to thank you and Drowski as well for that. Yeah, I yeah, I I just love that idea and I I wish it were were more widespread because a lot of times, you know, people will go through um these periods of of when, you know, nothing seems to be working right. They they just feel a little off. They feel out of kilter. Uh and it's a great comfort to say to yourself at those times, oh, I think I'm going through positive disintegration, [laughter] right? Even accurate, right? even if a little disillusion dis you know an illusion at times still a productive one.

Yeah. And um yeah so unfortunately uh to to wrap things up here because I could do this all day. Um I'd love to hear a little about the new book. I think um your team said it's coming out in July. Is that right? Yes, it's coming out uh July 1st. It is um on Amazon now for pre-order, but it's a it's an interesting format for a book. We haven't quite tried to do it this way before, but there are 50 little chapters in it, and each one of the chapters has a question that adult children of emotionally immature parents are likely to ask. Um, so you can go through the table of contents, find the problem or the question that piques your interest, and just go straight to that. It's it's more like a handbook. Uh, that's how I would describe it. There are some exercises in it for each chapter. So, it has a little bit of little workbooky journal kind of thing in it, but for the

most part, it's it's you go to what you're interested in or what your experiences are and read about that. And the book is called Disentangling from Emotionally Immature People. It's how you find yourself and how you support that relationship with yourself while learning how to deal with the emotionally immature people so that they stop being the ones who are running your life on on the inside. Wow. I I I didn't realize that was the um structure of it. I love that. That's uh almost [clears throat] like getting to do a Q&A with you in a book form. That's yeah, that's kind of that's kind of the spirit of it. And and I like I like reading little short chapters. They're they're kind of crunchy and fun. Um so [laughter] that's what I was to give the readers.

Yeah, especially in this day and age, people are constantly coming into my life saying, "How do you read books? I'm too ADHD for it." So that's a a beautiful setup for it and I think we'll help a lot of people. I'm super excited to read that. Oh, good, good, good. Awesome. Well, uh I just want to say again, thank you so much for taking the time to meet with me. This is been a long time coming now and uh you're you're one of my favorite uh authors out there and I've loved this book for a long time and I can't wait to read more and hopefully we get to do this again. Uh I would do it tomorrow if you were free. But uh I'll message you and whenever works for you, I would love to do it again in whatever form.

I would too, Will. and I I'm so appreciative of having the chance to to talk to your viewers. So, thank you very much.