My Fight For Self Worth & How Enmeshment Trauma Hides In Families - Therapist Jordan Pickell

Jordan Pittal. That's right. When you think of your childhood, what are the first memories that come up? Oh, my childhood. I think I was really shy kid. So, lots of memories of playing by myself. Um I was a big crybaby. I was labeled a crybaby. So, crying a lot. A lot of memories of um people looking at me while I'm crying. Big I had big emotions. Yeah. Um but I think another piece of my childhood is that I was labeled gifted uh for grade two. And that really shaped who I became, I think, because the expectations were so high. From and I'm an eldest daughter.

My mom is an immigrant from the Philippines. So, there was this feeling of you need to go to college and you need to make use of your gifts, your talents. And then there was a divert there was a split, right? Because there was performing goodness and perfection and to impress people and then there's how I actually felt inside. And so that became harder and still it's still here as an adult. So, I have to work hard to um honor the younger part in me cuz that little kid is still with me. Um yeah. How young do you remember feeling that uh feeling of pressure?

>> Well, that was right at when I was labeled gifted immediately. I mean, my parents always told me that, you know, you're going to be a lawyer someday, which is classic thing that people tell bright kids. Um but being labeled gifted, going to a special school, changing schools. And I had teachers all through high school looking at my test scores, looking at my grades, and saying these don't match up, what's going on? And I would do my homework and then just not turn it in. Because if it wasn't perfect, then it wasn't good enough. Actually, when I was when I was labeled gifted, um I got I was in the 99th percentile.

And my mom said, why not 100? And at that point I went, there isn't a 100. And I bring that up only because I feel like it's shaped my life in writing the book, in how I feel about myself. But I try not to tell people that. I don't tell people that that much because it sounds like a humble brag. Which is why I say labeled gifted, not that I was gifted, because as an adult I start to doubt, was I actually all that smart? Or was I just good at taking tests? And so that's something that it's more about the label than it is how what my intelligence was.

>> Yeah, so you touched on it a little bit there. What's been your journey with self-esteem as far as how you feel about yourself? Yeah, self-esteem is an interesting concept because self-esteem to me, in my definition, is very much contextual and it's it goes up and down, while self-worth is more of this constant. It has to grow over time. And so my self-esteem had highs. There would be lows too, because I was a shy kid, and so I didn't perform that great in front of like in social situations. But the self-worth piece I think, was much harder because the distance between how people saw me and the image that I had to project and how I actually felt were so different. And I would say that it's still something that I am struggling with. I wrote this book and I keep having to resist the urge of telling people like, "It's not that good.

You know, maybe don't read it." Because I want strangers to read it, not people who know me. Because I think it might make them feel make them judge me in a way. Because in theory, I'm a much better writer than I am. I think it's a a clear book and it's for a very specific audience. So, it's not about showing off my writing. And so, I keep reminding myself that it's for a certain group of people. And for that group of people, it's going to help a lot. And it's not the end-all, be-all of my intelligence, or my creativity, or my eloquence. And whatever gets left out can be for a future book. And that maybe this is the first of many.

>> Sounds like there's a lot of kind of battling your inner voice in there. Yeah. Yeah. What's been How how uh good have you gotten at silencing that voice? And what are the things that help? And what are the maybe areas that you still struggle with? Right. As a therapist, I would like to say that it's gotten a lot better. Maybe it has. I would say that it's less that I'm less hard on myself. Um because my inner voice is still very can be very cruel. So, it's more about orienting to it differently and and rather than identifying it as my one voice, as that is my inner self or my higher self telling me it's more that that's a part of me.

That's a part of me that judges me in that way and so that I can relate to it differently. But it's definitely still there. What do you attribute it to? That voice? Yeah. You know, I don't know because I never had someone explicitly say the cruel things that I say to myself. So I'm not sure where it comes from. You know, the actual content of what I say is way worse than anything I've ever experienced. So it's hard to say. I don't know if it's implicit messaging. Maybe the feeling of needing to be perfect, but I'm not a perfectionist. I am I always call myself notoriously type B, relentlessly type B, that I am deeply imperfect.

And somehow it's like a What does it mean to be a very type B perfectionist? It's like you're never feeling like enough. So I always feel behind. And yeah, being in a place of having to perform. So in my personal life trying to make friendships, having people in my life, like my family um my husband and my kids where I can really be myself and be my messy self and not having to perform. Um my kids are my husband and my kids are very proud of the things that I've done. And if you zoom out, I'm actually I've done a lot of things that my child self is like way beyond my imagination.

And yet it never you know, the performance is still there. So I think I have to split I think my personal self, my authentic self, and then my professional self. And those things can be very different, and it's more about putting on different hats than it is some kind of indictment on who I am. Do you have hope that that voice that you're going to be able to eliminate it or silence it, or do you just accept that it's going to be there? I I think the cruel voice will always be with me. I hope to quiet it, and I think the best way that I've noticed is being able to just see it, acknowledge it, and try to um try to soothe it in some way, and have that distance of observation of

like, "Okay, I see you, and I'm going to do the thing anyway." Cuz I think in the past I would let it stop me from taking risks. And now that that voice can be there, and I do my thing, and then when it comes up after and there's a shame spiral, you know, the vulnerability hangover, I can just sit with the discomfort. And that's the best way I found to relate to it. You mentioned before, and you've also posted about this a little bit about being the eldest daughter in your family. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about how that's impacted you and about the patterns that other eldest daughters might recognize in themselves?

>> Yeah. I always like to tell people I am an eldest daughter of an eldest daughter of an eldest daughter. So, it is there is quite a lineage of eldest daughters. And I've noticed that some people there's more conversation about what it means to be an eldest daughter. There's the strict sibling placement of it all, that being the eldest means that you are maybe more responsible, maybe more of a natural leader. And then being a girl, it means that there's this these natural roles that you're given for caregiving. But then when I talk about being an eldest daughter, I think there are many of us that it's more of a parentification. Some eldest daughters step in because there is a space that is left by parents and caregivers.

So they step in because no one else will do it. And then they feel all this weight that they don't unpack until adulthood. And so I see online so many people talking about the eldest daughter experience. And I do think we need to differentiate when it's about being a natural leader and kind of the girl boss version, the type A, I'm a type A eldest daughter, and that is not my experience because I'm very much type B. And it's more of the attending to other people's feelings, feeling responsible, being the PR representative of the family, which is a very different thing. So it can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

>> What What is emotional parentification? And what kind of adult does it generally create? There are two types of parentification. There's instrumental, and then there is emotional. And with emotional parentification, there is this This happens with eldest daughters. This happens for adult children of alcoholics or emotionally immature parents, where they're trying to keep the parent together because if my caregiver isn't together, that is terrifying to me. So I will go out of my way to try to soothe, to attend to their mood because then it feels safer safer because then it feels safer for all of us. And sometimes people don't even realize they're doing it. It's only in adulthood where they go, "Oh, people would tell me I was mature for my age. I felt really wise. I felt really good. I felt skilled at being able to support people's emotions." Maybe in adulthood they identify as empaths.

But when you look back, part of it was trying to stabilize a caregiver, whether they were chaotic or they just didn't have the tools to be an adult, and so somebody had to step up. And that you know, that could look like being the parent's therapist or confidant, almost like a quasi spouse. And that is very insidious to where as an adult they might feel hypervigilant around other people's moods, feel responsible for attending to other people's moods and and smoothing it over. And can be very uncomfortable to be around people who aren't happy. It feels almost personal that it It is my job to make someone feel better.

And then I have to tell people as a therapist that it's not your responsibility, which is so easy for me to say because they have grown up to learn, I mean, from childhood that it is my job to make sure that the people around me are okay. What about kind of sort of the opposite, I guess, in in some ways, if your parents emotionally neglected you altogether? Is the resulting adult different than the one who was parentified, or is there a lot of overlap? Emotional neglect is something that not a lot of people are aware of because it is the air that people breathe.

And in terms of parentification, I would say parentification is a type of emotional neglect because while the parent might have a sense of warmth, might be very the giving lots of compliments to the child that there's not an attending to their emotional world and being curious about their emotional world and being allowing them to be a kid. So, parentification is a type of emotional neglect. But when we're talking about emotional neglect as a whole, it's something that you didn't get as a kid, somebody who is interested in who you are and your your feelings inside. And so, what does that mean in adulthood? It's hard to identify your own emotions.

You don't have the language for it. You might look to other people to try to give you some some guidance. How do I feel? Maybe people can be numbed to their emotions because they never got that language, because they never got warmth around those emotion the expression of those emotions. So, what's the point? So, they just bury them and it feels very disconnecting. They it's harder to connect with other people when you aren't connected with your own emotions. Your new book, which comes out September 1st, I believe. Yes, that's right. It's called Untangling the Ties That Bind, Heal Enmeshment, Trauma, and Break Dysfunctional Patterns with Family Members.

Why did you choose to make enmeshment the topic of your first book? And did anything you learned in writing it surprise you? Oh. Enmeshment is something that not a lot of people even know about. And yet it drives so much of people's experiences. The problem is, I think it's going to be getting people the big leap from not knowing what enmeshment is to knowing what it is and then the aha of oh, all of these things are related. Because enmeshment at its most basic level is just a lack of boundaries between two or more people if you're talking about a family. And there's so many different types of boundaries, right? There's the physical boundaries that my parent was all up in my space even though I didn't want them to, which can be extremely violating.

There can be emotional boundaries, so our feelings, our thoughts, our opinions overlap and I can't actually differentiate what's mine and what's yours. There's time boundaries, money boundaries where parents or other family members feel entitled to your time, money, energy, those finite resources. And a lot of people don't know that they're in that because they're just they might even see it as a strength, like the being the good son or the good daughter where I try to make people happy. And those people can be they can be very serious or they can be goofballs. Like there are a lot of different ways the families that are enmeshed can be really loud, they can be um very quiet or there's maybe one explosive person.

So it can look in so many different ways. But one thing for sure that for a lot of people when you know the language of enmeshment, people outside of the family, outside of the relationship can see when people are are better able to see when people are enmeshed. So there will be a lot of partners who read the book and they're not enmeshed, but they think they see their partners are enmeshed with their families. There will be people there will be therapists who maybe some siblings who read the book and go, "You know what? This is this is for you. You need to read this." And I don't expect a lot of people to pick up the book because they have never heard heard enmeshment trauma, they have never heard about parentification. They will either be people who are already on that journey of understanding the word and their experiences or people outside of them giving them the book.

>> So, for you, what are the signs that someone is in an enmeshed relationship even if they themselves would claim that they aren't? Yeah. Enmeshment is a tricky thing to talk about for people who don't who push against the word because what they say and how they feel can be very different. So, they might say uh my mom is my best friend and I would I would do anything for her. Meanwhile, mom is giving lots of um injecting a lot of opinions, maybe controlling her the way that she dresses and from my perspective, so then as a therapist seeing outside, I can get curious. I don't I don't necessarily go this person's enmeshed, I'm going to give them the book. Um I we're going to go down this road. I'm going to help them find see the way and it's more that what do you feel in the relationship?

And how do you actually feel in the relationship? Because the the story can be we're close, it's a special relationship. I mean, there are lots of different types of enmeshment, but the story can be it's a special kind of relationship and over time going, "Oh, I actually feel really violated. I feel like I don't have a sense of self in this relationship or I feel that I can't leave, I can't grow up, I can't leave the home because what will it mean for mom?" And so in therapy or in that personal work, people can start to tease apart how do I actually feel or different parts of me feel versus what is the story that I'm telling and to be okay with that those things are different and that we can we can look at them more fully.

>> If I'm watching this and I see parts of my spouse in what you're saying, what's Do you have any recommendations for How do I approach that? Yeah. It is very tender for the enmeshed person to have somebody tell them like their partner say, "I think you're enmeshed with your family." That feels really scary because it feels pathologizing. And that's where I'm really careful about giving the language to people immediately. Like it has to be really clear that this is exactly what we're talking about and enmeshment is the word. But if your partner, if you think your partner has boundaries like missing boundaries with their families and that they're distressed by it and that they feel like they can't get out of it, then approaching them with some compassion and empathy and not you need to set boundaries with your family. It is getting in the way of our closeness, our marriage and it's more I see that you're really struggling. You're holding all of these people's needs and their demands of you and you

know you don't actually have to hold it all. And what would it be like to drop it? Maybe, you know, of course I'm going to say you should read the book because it's okay to love your family and to want the best for them and and give some sacrifice them if that's one of your personal values and how do you care for yourself in that? How is that sustainable? How is there self-respect and mutuality with the relationship that it's not just you pouring all of your energy into the family with nothing in return. Can you be enmeshed with your spouse? You can absolutely be enmeshed with your spouse. There will be spouses who need to have the same friend group, the same interests. Oh, I They call those like tofu girlfriends, where they soak in their partners needs, wants, hobbies as their own.

Like, "Oh, I guess I have to take up piano now because you play piano." And that can be really First of all, it's not sexy to [snorts] to be one person because I think the distance the difference can be part of what's attractive to people. But it holds people back from being connected with themself and looking to their own goals goals and interests. What's the path out of an enmeshed relationship and specifically the people-pleasing tendencies that so many people struggle with that often come with it? Getting out of enmeshment trauma is multi-layered. It is slow, it is nuanced because it is a kind of complex trauma. It happens from childhood. And so the ways to get out of it, there's I talk about the bottom-up and then top-down. So top-down would be, what are my values?

What can I communicate to my family? How do I create distance that feels good? What kinds of boundaries? Because maybe I love spending lots of time with them, but I'm not going to tell them all the intimate details of my relationship. So those details can be very different for for different people. So top-down values, communicated boundaries. And then there's the bottom-up pieces of who am I outside of these relationships? How what are my feelings when it's not being bombarded by other people's feelings? What do I want in my life? And that can be So the values with those deep inner feelings can be self-knowledge, it can be this inner compass that a lot of people who are enmeshed from childhood just don't have.

>> If you could make everyone in the world do like three things that you think would be incredibly helpful to their mental health, what would those things be for you? Yeah. Three things to help people with their mental health. As a trauma therapist, you know, number one, go to therapy is what I'm going to tell everyone. But also boundaries are really important because it's a pathway to carving out the space for yourself so that you can figure out what you need. And when I look at things like relationships, knowing yourself, but even burnout, work stress, those things all require boundaries with other people so that you can tend to yourself.

And then if I had to do the third thing, I would say I want people to get in touch with their own feelings. Because feelings have inherent value. It's not just it's not just, okay, it's a good thing to do. That it's a value. I think it truly gives people direction in their life. I think it'll enlivens people. And without feeling our feelings, life can feel really gray. That there can be depression-like symptoms, feeling really hopeless, disconnected because the vague bad feelings, if you unpack it's like, oh, I'm actually angry about this. I'm sad about this. And things like grief demand to be felt. Things like anger, maybe it's pushing you to set a boundary that you're ignoring. And so attending to your feelings is a huge part of that. So, therapy so that you have somebody to reflect back to you

what is happening to be able to un- unpack some of these things. Boundaries so that you can carve out a space for for sustainable wellness. And then the third being attention to your feelings, attention to your body. Hey, when am I thirsty? Even like that, going that deep can be a way of supporting our wellness. Yeah, every conversation that uh centers on family dynamics and relationships, there's usually eventually comes up the issue of forgiveness. Mhm. What's your stance on forgiveness? Is it required for healing? Forgiveness is not required for healing. In fact, I think the concept of forgiveness can get in the way of a lot of people's healing and it's such a beautiful concept, but it has been used, co-opted by in the case of family dysfunctional families, family members who will say, "You have

to forgive that person." Whether it's an estranged parent or even an an abusive family member, so that we can move forward because it's uncomfortable for us. And people it's a deeply personal. It's deeply personal how people define forgiveness. And so, it could be forgiveness is self-betrayal, so I'm absolutely not going to do that. It could be forgiveness is not letting them off the hook, but letting but letting myself have my anger let go to let go that what happened happened. And so, I don't introduce the language of forgiveness to people unless they bring it up because it can feel for coming from an outside source, it can feel like stop feeling that way. Get over it." When that is the opposite of what I want to be sharing with people.

>> If you had the opportunity to go back to little Jordan whenever she needed someone most, what would you want to tell her? Oh. I have such a soft spot for little Jordan. I've actually had recurring dreams of meeting her and and connecting with her. And if I could be there for her, I think just telling her that her big emotions are completely understandable and welcome. And that I actually really admire her for her sensitivity. And wow, to be little Jordan and to hear that would have meant so much. Thank you, Jordan. Thank you. [music]